Curse

iTzF3aR · Sep 18, 2009, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Monks are still playable. Two nerfs does not stop a whole proffesion,

Artisan Archer · Sep 18, 2009, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Oh no! You can't play with your elbows anymore /cry ...

Aldric · Sep 18, 2009, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Selfless needed a bit of a hit and although i liked patient as is was the change doesnt render it useless , just less spamable.

Monks are not even close to useless just because of 2 skill changes and i personally rarely ever see anything other than monk healers while pugging or playing guild groups.

HawkofStorms · Sep 18, 2009, 09:51 PM // 21:51

This thread is like asking why a flare ele doesn't work in HM.

A heal monks don't work because they aren't supposed to work. You are supposed to use a hybrid prot build and be an active defender, looking at positioning. Your profession does not "push read bars up."

Age · Sep 18, 2009, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Rits are much, much better.

No they don't.They have the power of divine favour as well as hex and condition removel.

Zahr Dalsk · Sep 19, 2009, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Monks as healing and prot are fine.

I'd say smiting is what needs a serious overhaul.

Chocobo1 · Sep 19, 2009, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Ugh, more bad players who think Selfless Spirit nerf was the end of the world. Monks did well without it before, and will continue to do well with it now. It's even still usable, 20 seconds of -3 on your monk spells isn't something to be pushed aside. Better than it was before anyway. Sorry you can't hit it on recharge anymore guys.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil Leena

@ Desert Rose,

Why on earth does WoH need a nerf? Its the ONLY decent heal elite. You don't nerf it so other, less-used elites get a look in thats just retarded.

Well yeah you do. Other healing elites could be bought up just a little to compete with WoH. At the moment, it's just a stupidly insane 5E heal for anyone who isn't a moron.

HawkofStorms · Sep 19, 2009, 02:07 AM // 02:07

If WoH is the "only" good healing elite... doesn't that mean WoH is way better then every other one... and therefore, overpowered? After all, what is a "balanced" is defined by how good it is in comparison to all other skills. Lil Leena... your own argument on why it shouldn't be nerfed is the reason it should be nerfed.

MagmaRed · Sep 19, 2009, 02:53 AM // 02:53

For PvE I run a 2 Monk setup. Neither of the 2 are hybrids, one is Heal+Divine Favor, the other is Protection+Divine Favor. I do this with humans and heroes/hench both. I have no problems, and the skill changes don't effect me as I don't use Selfless Spirit, and rarely use Patient Spirit.

Learn HOW to Monk, and the skills you use can be quite varied.

Axel Zinfandel · Sep 19, 2009, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

No they don't.They have the power of divine favour as well as hex and condition removel.

I was talking about his comment about condition removal. Please read before you post.

Quote:

Ugh, more bad players who think Selfless Spirit nerf was the end of the world.

I'm not saying that Selfless Spirit is the end of the world so much as it actually put monks more 'in line' with ER eles. Since Anet doesn't seem to want to nerf ER....

Basically, there's no real reason to play a monk over an ele save a few certain builds that utilize a second profession on a monk (AP for one). It takes the skill out of monking, because instead of proting smart, you just prot on anything that is taking damage and your good. Infusers can heal any character to full health, and even if you don't want to use IH, Heal Other and Jamei's gaze works well for healing.

Age · Sep 19, 2009, 07:03 AM // 07:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

I was talking about his comment about condition removal. Please read before you post.

Who's comment yours as I quoted your post no one elses.

I am board Administrator so I do read everything.

WoH is just fine.

Xenomortis · Sep 19, 2009, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Basically, there's no real reason to play a monk over an ele save a few certain builds that utilize a second profession on a monk (AP for one). It takes the skill out of monking, because instead of proting smart, you just prot on anything that is taking damage and your good. Infusers can heal any character to full health, and even if you don't want to use IH, Heal Other and Jamei's gaze works well for healing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Roll an ER Ele, head over to Slaver's and take on the first group in Duncan HM.* ER builds cannot cope well with heavy pressure very well and cannot pack hex or condition removal (their bars are very tight as it is).
A Monk in team with an ER Ele should try to fulfill the roles the Ele can't. Namely, cleaning and party heals.
For once, I would advocate Healer's Boon and Heal Party, or perhaps Restore Condition.

Ether Renewal has weaknesses. It has weaknesses a Monk can build around without too much of a problem. Ether Renewal does not make a monk redundant. It just makes accepted builds redundant.

At spamming the two big prots, ER Ele's are better than monks.
At restoring a single red bar, ER Ele's are better than monks.
When the entire team is taking heavy pressure, Infuse isn't wonderful. A monk geared to dealing with pressure is better than the ER Ele. As long as there's a copy of Prot Spirit floating around somewhere that is.

reaper with no name · Sep 19, 2009, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malician

Exactly! I saw your post regarding this in the relevant thread. Ele infuser fails even in NM!

Now, we all know everything works in NM. How to respond to this paradox?

Ele infusers force the other team's monks to heal them constantly, thus doing the impossible and actively killing their team in a situation where the monsters can't.

Wait, wait, that post wasn't a joke?

Do you even know how the ER build works? Half the point of ER is that it gives you back the health you lose from infuse. So, no, it doesn't force anyone else to heal you. And if you do need health, just cast any spell except infuse (ER doesn't just give you health when you spam infuse, after all).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Roll an ER Ele, head over to Slaver's and take on the first group in Duncan HM.* ER builds cannot cope well with heavy pressure very well and cannot pack hex or condition removal (their bars are very tight as it is).
A Monk in team with an ER Ele should try to fulfill the roles the Ele can't. Namely, cleaning and party heals.
For once, I would advocate Healer's Boon and Heal Party, or perhaps Restore Condition.

Ether Renewal has weaknesses. It has weaknesses a Monk can build around without too much of a problem. Ether Renewal does not make a monk redundant. It just makes accepted builds redundant.

*You may succeed, but that mob and what you face in the rest of Slaver's should point out the weaknesses.

I almost fully agree with this post (except for the heavy pressure part; there's nothing preventing an ER ele from packing Heal Party; and their infinite energy will make them better at party healing over the long term; plus there's shield guardian to consider; which easily allows an ER ele to out-party-heal a monk).

ER bars require a lot of enchantments, so they can't fit condition or hex removal on their bar. That's the one place where monks can beat them, and in a party with an ER healer that's what a monk should focus on.

It's not much, but it's better than nothing.

Xenomortis · Sep 19, 2009, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

I almost fully agree with this post (except for the heavy pressure part; there's nothing preventing an ER ele from packing Heal Party; and their infinite energy will make them better at party healing over the long term; plus there's shield guardian to consider; which easily allows an ER ele to out-party-heal a monk).

How would you fit Heal Party in there?
Shield Guardian is carried because it's spammable. You can cast it very quickly between Infuses to get your health back up. Heal Party is at a 2 second cast time, in that time you'll probably want to hit something else.
And don't suggest carrying Mindbender, because you really cannot fit that in.

There's also the healing spec to consider. Heal Party requires a pretty high investment in healing. Normally, an ER Ele doesn't need to consider a healing spec.

reaper with no name · Sep 19, 2009, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Even if we ignore Heal Party, a 50 or so party heal every 2 sec will quickly defeat an HB+Heal Party.

Chthon · Sep 19, 2009, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

At spamming the two big prots, ER Ele's are better than monks.
At restoring a single red bar, ER Ele's are better than monks.
When the entire team is taking heavy pressure, Infuse isn't wonderful. A monk geared to dealing with pressure is better than the ER Ele. As long as there's a copy of Prot Spirit floating around somewhere that is.

Agreed.
About the only roles left the monks beat eles at are...
1. Party Healing with HBoon
2. Self-chaining Aegis and Seed of Life with AP
3. Heavy Condition/Hex Removal (although Foul Feast almost gives condition removal all the way over to N/X or X/N midliners...)

These are all situationally useful, but none as useful as spammable bigprot + huge spotheal. At best, the monk has become the secondary character to provide gap coverage for the ele.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

there's nothing preventing an ER ele from packing Heal Party;

2 second cast time.

Xenomortis · Sep 19, 2009, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Even if we ignore Heal Party, a 50 or so party heal every 2 sec will quickly defeat an HB+Heal Party.

Shield Guardian will not achieve that. Even if it did, it is not reliable enough and more situational.
And "Nearby Allies" doesn't equate to party healing.

Age · Sep 19, 2009, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Roll an ER Ele, head over to Slaver's and take on the first group in Duncan HM.* ER builds cannot cope well with heavy pressure very well and cannot pack hex or condition removal (their bars are very tight as it is).
A Monk in team with an ER Ele should try to fulfill the roles the Ele can't. Namely, cleaning and party heals.
For once, I would advocate Healer's Boon and Heal Party, or perhaps Restore Condition.

Ether Renewal has weaknesses. It has weaknesses a Monk can build around without too much of a problem. Ether Renewal does not make a monk redundant. It just makes accepted builds redundant.

*You may succeed, but that mob and what you face in the rest of Slaver's should point out the weaknesses.

You still don't have the healing power of a Monk and some protection spell do well with it.I will say if this was the case then why don't they just use as you said in HA,TA as well Tourneys' instead of Monks.Mesmers can always replace an Eles as they can cast spells faster than Eles can.

If they made smiting stronger we Monks would just go and smite and do big damage.

Xenomortis · Sep 19, 2009, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

You still don't have the healing power of a Monk and some protection spell do well with it.I will say if this was the case then why don't they just use as you said in HA,TA as well Tourneys' instead of Monks.Mesmers can always replace an Eles as they can cast spells faster than Eles can.

What?
Two reasons why ER Eles don't popup in any PvP setting:

1. Ether Renewal is an enchantment. Your energy management is enchantment based and if ER is stripped, you're in trouble. Without ER, the ele has no advantages over the monk.
2. Ether Renewal (PvP).

I understand that Eles using elite e-management to pump out expensive heals and prots is not a recent concept though.

Axel Zinfandel · Sep 19, 2009, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

They still are the best at removing conditions except Paras

Thats what I was referring to when I said Rits were better. also in that I was referring to non-elite options. Obviously RC monks are going to defeat Rits.

So yeah, sorry, I was a bit vague